SHOOTING PEOPLE - UK SCREENWRITERS NETWORK
Supported by The Script Factory

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From: Ben Blaine
Subject: Pitch problems.

Yesterday's pitches and my own private demons have led me to a problem I'd like people to argue with.

Aren't pitches almost totally pointless? Does the industry's apparent dependency upon them explain a great deal of the problems this list is regularly vibrating to?

Apart from making all films sound either utterly stupid or the product of a vulgar pic 'n' mix operation on cine-history doesn't pitch culture raise the idea to unwonted heights of importance at the expense of execution?

Aren't many (most?) of the best films not those with ground breaking narrative devices or ideas but simply those that make the best use of the ideas and clichés found within them? Isn't this quality of execution the most important factor in any screenplay and isn't it precisely the thing you excise to turn the film into a pitch?

Don't get me wrong I understand WHY we pitch, if only because you have to start somewhere when pushing your story to someone else - if only at the at, hey read this it's about...(x) level. I can't think how you'd run an industry without the pitch (unless the numbers of script readers expand exponentially) but I do think that this initial insistence of CONCEPT reduces the scope of work being produced and has resulted in a large number of films which work fantastically as pitches but completely fall apart over ninety plus minutes of screen time.

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From: Giles Edwards
Subject: Quality of Pitches

I'm sure a lot of work goes into many of the scripts pitched on this site but I have a query, a genuine one so please don't see this as 'jealous writer has dig' etc etc etc. Is the art of pitching completely lost on some you? You're meant to be concise, witty, original and, well, enticing, surely if you want people to be interested!

With all the debate on how to format/write etc why is there not similar thought given to how you produce the pitch for prospective collaborators. Without naming names.... some of the pitches that get here are quite dismal. And it bodes ill for any kind of future either for yourselves or for the industry. I get to read pitches and scripts in my job and have seen my fair share - good and bad. There really has to be more work put in to excite people. We should all be applauded for actually finishing a script, yes, but it doesn't stop there.

I have as much trouble creatively conceptualising my plots as the rest of you, believe me! I just don't make mine public until I know that it's great and not just embarrassing to read. Ill-thought out synopses, cliché after cliché in little pat soundbites....all this

doesn't make for anything above what you'd laugh at on TV. I realise this sound bitchy and callous then so be it - take it any way you like. If it applies to you, you know it. If it doesn't then you have nothing to worry about.

I hate to bring up the US style of writing all the time as I believe we have a nation of great talents and shouldn't live in an American shadow....but has anyone seen The Player ? The opening scene...with the pitches? Gross parody to be sure but has it's basis in truth. You need to be as original and creative in your pitching as you do in your writing.

The Americans seem to know haw to sell a story. You see it all the time on showbiz docus and EPK stuff. Directors or writers or whoever getting wound up in selling you a story. When was the last time you saw a British version of he same that wasn't "Urm, er...well it's always been seen as a classic tale,...er, so we, erm brought up to date...y'know Lock Stock/Four Weddings/Bridget Jones/insert tired old film reference here-style". We are dire at it.

There could be a reason that everyone always asks the question "Has anyone sold anything from pitching on Shooting People?" and no one seems to reply in the affirmative. The answer could be more of a harsh reality than you think.

I hope none of you misconstrue this is errant and impetuous criticism, but what goes left unsaid gets left undone.

So if you want to bitch...go ahead. Doesn't bother me any. If however you don't want to....then get creating eh?!?!?!

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From: Mark Grant
Subject: Re: Pitch problems.

"Aren't pitches almost totally pointless? Does the industry's apparent dependency upon them explain a great deal of the problems this list is regularly vibrating to?"

To me that makes about as much sense as asking: aren't trailers almost totally pointless? Both serve the same purpose, to allow you to quickly decide which movies you might be interested in, and which you're almost definitely not interested in; whether you're a producer bombarded with scripts or a moviegoer bombarded with multitudinous opportunities for spending your time and money, you don't want to read an entire script or watch an entire movie before deciding it wasn't your kind of thing to begin with.

"Doesn't pitch culture raise the idea to unwonted heights of importance at the expense of execution?"

To an extent I'd certainly agree, however in most cases I don't believe it's too hard to demonstrate in a short pitch that your movie isn't as cliché'd as the basic idea may sound; even if it's only at the 'think Notting Hill meets Hellraiser' level. There certainly are movies which are hard to sell as a pitch, but generally they're also hard to sell to an audience so you shouldn't be surprised that they're had to sell to producers.

"I do think that this initial insistence of CONCEPT reduces the scope of work being produced and has resulted in a large number of films which work fantastically as pitches but completely fall apart over ninety plus minutes of screen time."

True, but that's as much a pre-production issue as a pitching issue; a pitch should only get your foot in the door, not guarantee that the movie gets made. You may even find that those movies started out with a good pitch *and* a good script, but it was destroyed by a bad director or bad rewrites; I know of a couple of big-budget (by British standards, anyway) movies which went that way.

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From: Matt Impey
Subject: Pitch comments

I read Giles Edwards' pitch comments yesterday and I must admit that I was one of the guilty parties that pitched abysmally on Tuesday. It was my first time, I was nervous, I'd had a lot to drink...

Speaking personally, mine were pitches in name only. I was trying to give accurate, honest descriptions in a small space. I was trying to interest people in making my scripts rather than purchasing a commodity. I know SP is intensely professional, but some of us are just interested in the doing. I would rather somebody saw what a script would really be like and decide not to read it than think something was really exciting and dynamic and then read it only to be disappointed.

On another note, thanks to those who asked for my scripts. One of them was Jon Beacham, who I hope is reading this as I tried his e-mail address but couldn't get through. Jon, if you still want 'em, try another line.

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From: John Woodwark
Subject: Pitches - who gives a toss?

Ben Blaine makes a lot of sense, but what do you do? For instance, how would you pitch the current box-office success, Shrek? "Satire on Sleeping Beauty" is accurate; but if I pitch "Satire on Goldilocks" on Shooting People, will my hand be bitten off? No, I think it will be safe. I'm afraid you just have to accept that certain sorts of project - yes, the ones that rely entirely on "quality of execution" - are unpitchable and hence inaccessible to those without serious industry connections.

Giles Edwards' pastiche of the British pitch "Urm, er...well it's always been seen as a classic tale,...er, so we, erm brought up to date...y'know" describes Shrek rather nicely. However, it did make me feel very guilty for digging up a out-of-copyright short story, completely changing the setting, adding a twist, and passing it off as my own screenplay, without giving more than an acknowledgement to the original author. And I expect Shooting People will be getting apologies from all those dodgy Shakespeare recyclers, and Mr Merchant and Mr Ivory of course, not to mention the unspeakable people who are currently ripping off the Lord of the Rings. Wish, as they say, on.

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From: Guy Hallifax
Subject: Pitching

I want to support Ben Blaine's point about pitching. It is hardest part of the process, I think, but the key link between the origination of the work and its appearance on the screen.

The Film Council recently approached the Writers' Guild with the laudable objective of forging closer links between the two organisations, and a number of writers (including me) went to them for an interesting first meeting. Really good to meet the commissioners face to face in a no-pressure situation. One of the first things to spring from that meeting was an offer by the Film Council to run a series of Masterclasses for writers. I suggested that pitching should be one of them. That was last week, and I await information about what and when the events will be. I don't know yet whether these Masterclasses will be restricted to Guild Members - this might be yet another benefit of membership - but whatever, I believe the more help we writers can get with pitching technique, the better. And as you see, I am trying to do something about it.

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From: Oli Lewington, GMV Entertainment
Subject: Re: Pitch Problems

Just read the posting on the problems of pitching and thought I'd chip in - from a producer's perspective.

I can't help but agree with what was said, having received a script yesterday with a pitch so lame I thought I wouldn't bother with the script. In fact, it is by far the best script I've read so far and I'm now seriously considering taking my interest further.

BUT - pitching is important. Being able to summarise your scripts into a simple two or three sentences is something that (alas) all writers need to be able to do. And believe me when I say that I know how hard it is to condense your complicated, multi-layered baby into a simplistic synopsis.

The only films pitches EVER do justice to are for those of producers like Bruckheimer. The single-line pitches of his movies tell the entire story of the movie and you hardly even need to do a treatment!

All I can suggest to you by way of (really lame) advice is to be thinking of your pitch the whole time you are developing and writing your screenplay. Your pitch needs as much work as your final, polished draft - don't dismiss it as the thing you do last to get it read. And I'll leave you with the words of Christine Vachon, producer of Velvet Goldmine, Boys Don't Cry and Happiness; "Never NEVER give me the X meets Y pitch! It demeans your own film - it makes it sound as if it cannot stand up on its own."

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From: Leslie Lowes, Penultimate Films & Features Ltd
Subject: Pitching to the Market

"Don't get me wrong I understand WHY we pitch, if only because you have to start somewhere when pushing your story to someone else - if only at the at, hey read this it's about...(x) level. I can't think how you'd run an industry without the pitch (unless the numbers of script readers expand"

Ben Blaine is learning fast, I see!

On Monday Ben, you were advocating a "write for people" not for markets approach. But I see by Wednesday you are pitching to the market, if only in the shape of a scriptreader. I'm impressed by the speed at which you have assimilated market forces in the business of film. Well done!

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From: Robert Moss
Subject: why writers fail

Most aspiring film writers who hope to make it one day as paid script writers can't write to the required standard.

Most people who pitch here can't do it well enough.

Most writers don't have the required knowledge of structure or story necessary to make a sale.

Most British films that fail do so because they aren't about anything.

Ask most writers what their script is about and they'll say, "It's about two guys who rob a bank and it goes wrong and then... and then... " (fill in your own blanks). That isn't what the story is about - that's what happens. Most writers fail because what they have is a loose sequence of events and not a story.

When was the last time you asked someone what their script was about and they said, "forgiveness" or "redemption" or "self sacrifice" or whatever... the script had a meaningful universal theme that touches, moves and inspires the audience.

Die Hard wasn't "about anything" deep and meaningful - but it was entertaining. It was a book before it was a film. It had a story and a structure. Most scripts you will read by people who post here don't have a story that is strong enough or a structure that is strong enough to hold it all together.

Whether you are writing Die Hard or The Unbearable Lightness of Being you must be the best at it - better than everyone else writing those films.

I can make you a cast iron 100% sure fire guarantee - you can take this promise to the bank. If you can come up with an original idea, write it well, tell a good story and structure it properly and then spread the word about it, then movie execs will beat a path to your door. They will beg you to sell them your script.

Most of you will never make it in the way you desire.

If you want an agent, or you want to sell your script, if you want to make the film yourself - if your work is good enough, if you are persistent enough, it will happen.

If it does not happen, it does not happen because you are a) unlucky b) agents are stupid c) movie execs are dumb or whatever lame excuse you care to mention

If you fail it is because you were not determined enough or your work was not strong enough.

There are good writers out there. They make sales.

Learn from them. Study. Network. Dream. Strive to improve and be the best you can, whatever that it.

Do not wonder why you don't make it. It is down to you.

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From: Pete E Jarvis
Subject: when writers fail

I think the posting why writers fail was an excellent one however I think it's time for the next step what to do when writers fail. Warning this is the therapist speaking now, but I know from my experience with individuals, companies and professional sports people that learning to handle and overcome failure is the most important thing you will ever learn. Picking yourself up and bouncing back from countless rejections is the key to success. These problems are not exclusive to writers although maybe writers are the only people not trained to deal with them, did you ever hear of a sales person not receiving training, in fact companies spend millions every year training their staff to deal with and overcome such problems. Mind you I've yet to receive an enquiry from a film school. As for being angry at the powers that be, studios BBC etc, remember as writers you control the means of production perhaps a little solidarity and a look back at the history of something like the co-operative movement is called for. In the meantime try repeating my mantra 'Don't get Bitter Get Better'.

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From: Robert Moss
Subject: pitches, who gives a toss?

The answer to that question is producers and movie execs.

If you can't pitch to them you won't sell your work.

If you are an unknown writer and you want to get a meeting so the busy exec will listen to your heart rending tale of Moggy the cat's inner journey to self-fulfilment, you had better be able to pitch it one line and make it sound interesting.

People who don't think pitching is important don't succeed.

Accept that fact and embrace it. It's a skill that can be learned.

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From: Mark Grant
Subject: Re: Pitch Problems

"All I can suggest to you by way of (really lame) advice, is to be thinking of your pitch the whole time you are developing and writing your screenplay."

I'd suggest going even further than that; I wrote a half-page outline of a feature script Sunday night, and I've already figured out a trailer, a poster and a possible sequel... Now, if it ever gets made I'm sure that the marketers will come up with more creative advertising than mine, but at least from that I can see that it could be sold before I've even started writing the full script; it's quite rare that I see an unproduced script and can imagine what the poster or trailer would show, yet that's a major part of getting the bums onto seats if you sell the script and get the movie into a cinema.

I think every screenwriter should at least ask themselves: What would be on my movie poster? If you can't answer that one, then the script probably isn't focused enough.

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From: David Haggith
Subject: Re: Pitches

Just thought I'd venture a comment about a number of the pitches. Many of them still have no passion. They sound as if you scarcely care about the story yourself. I realise the British are not renowned for their passion, but you've got to try. Your psychological drama may be the most convoluted nightmare on earth, or it may be as dry as a college professor lecturing on the criminal mind. How will I know? It may be the funniest comedy ever written in Warwick, but how will I know if the pitch doesn't even put a curl on my lip?

When someone asks you for a pitch, it's like ordering a sampler platter. You need to serve something that gives a representative taste of what you've got in store. That means you have to give away your best idea, and you've got to give me a taste of your writing. Vaguery doesn't work. ("Boy meets girl, but this time it's funny, and they get in lots of trouble." Who cares!?)

If it's not worth your time to make the pitch good, it's not worth my time to listen. You have to make me believe that spending an hour going over your screenplay is not going to be the dullest waste of my time. You may be ten times funnier than I look, but you've got to prove it. Your screenplay may be ten times scarier than I look, but you've got to make my hair tingle. So, have some fun with it. It's your biggest creative challenge. You've got at least a 4-6-sentences in which to be a poet and make me laugh or cry, why not use all of it to its fullest advantage?

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From: Spitfire Films
Subject: Re: Pitches & Pitching

I do not believe in pitches or pitching. I do not give pitches nor will I hear them. While it is time-consuming, there is no substitute for reading the script itself. A great idea in pitch form might just as easily be a terrible script and a lacklustre pitch might truly come to life in script form. Writers: There is no substitute for writing a full script. Producers: There is no substitute for reading a full script. I encourage everyone to try to see that there are no effective short-cuts on either side of this. Pitching came into being because no one has any time, but if it really is the case that no one has the time to read through the actual material, then why and how can we expect audiences to spend two hours at the cinema plus an hour getting there and back if we aren't willing to spend the necessary time to find good material?

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From: Andrew Senior
Subject: Response to Spitfire films 'Pitches & Pitching'

This is an incredibly ill judged statement. The pitch is the backbone of the film industry. The sole purpose of which, is to show that the story has a good premise, and without which there can NEVER be a good script. ALL scripts which make it to the screen are re-written, sometimes several times and often by different writers than the original author. Most screenwriters make their living from drafting scripts from someone else's pitch or doing re-writes. I know of a master pitchman (yes.. a person employed solely to pitch ideas to execs) called Robert Kasberg who went to a meeting at a major studio armed only with a poster of a dog with the title graphic 'Man's Best Friend'. He said the words 'Jaws with Paws' and unveiled the poster of a slobbering Rottweiler and the execs wrote him out a massive cheque on the spot. Now it could be argued that perhaps this method is the reason why most main stream films are pretty crappy, but the same majority of low-budget indie films are also pretty lame and in their case often because they haven't been through the main stream scripting process rather than because their target audience is the lowest common denominator. Not all the best ideas are thought up by the few screenwriters in Hollywood who actually get paid and its worth remembering that a good high concept premise or pitch can sell for as much (or more) money as the full draft of a weaker idea.

So my advice is, don't start writing a full script until you've written at least 20 or so premises.. then choose the best.. and if you want to be a writer.. choose one that's commercial.. because you can't say you're a writer if you're not getting paid to write.. (you can say that you are 'writing' but not that you're a writer).

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From: Geoff Harris
Subject: Pitches and Pitching

No one in this country will pay for a first draft based on a pitch. Pitching is not the way things are generally done here in more conservative England. Writers may pitch a treatment, on the basis of which they may get commissioned to write a script, but not on the basis of an idea!! You may be able to pitch a great idea but you may write a crap script.

And that's why those writers in the States who get commissioned on the basis of a pitch are already established and their work is known. They can be trusted to come up with a good first draft otherwise no Hollywood exec. would part with his money. I'm sure Robert Kasberg's pitch of 'Jaws with Paws' was on behalf of a name writer.

But I think your point is more that a good, original and commercial script is based on a good premise which of course is true, but as Spitfire Films say, after that we want to read the script before parting with our money.

And I don't agree with you that writers are not writers if they're not being paid. Was Picasso a painter before he started selling his work? I think so.

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From: Robert Moss
Subject: pitching

I would say that pitching is something every writer will have to do in their lives. That's just the way it is, so writers might as well become good at it.

To the guy at Spitfire who won't listen to pitches and always reads the scripts, well, all I can say to that is, if it works for him good luck to him. He probably reads an awful lot of bad scripts, but that's his prerogative. Unfortunately, 99% of the rest of the movie business likes to hear pitches - they don't like to read. That's why they employ script readers, to sort out the 1% quality from the 99% dross.

A movie exec can stand to lose 10-20 mins of his day on a bad pitch - he can't afford three hours to read a bad script.

I'd also say,

1) don't pitch unless you have a script, because if someone likes it and wants to read more then you look unprofessional and they 'might' decide they like your idea enough to write it themselves. If a writer pitches an idea he hasn't written, that says to me he's lazy and doesn't believe in the idea enough.

2) the great thing about being pitched to is that it enables you to see if the writer really understands his story. As soon as you try and tell your story to someone, you see immediately where it works and doesn't work - too many pitches are under prepared.

3) high concept pitches like "jaws with paws" are rare - 99% of pitches that sell are done though meetings where the writer sits down to explain as follows a) his 25 word pitch b) what happens c) what it's about - and if they're still interested, a more detailed breakdown of events act ny act, with inciting incidents, turning points, themes and character arcs. Unless you can do all that with confidence, your story isn't ready to pitch.

It's not easy - in fact, when you first do it, standing up in front of people who have the power to make or break your career is cringe-making. For a long time, you'll probably suck at it - but practise makes perfect. It really is as easy as that. Pitch to your friends, pitch to a mirror, pitch into a tape recorder or video and watch yourself.

Ask yourself - how much do I want to succeed - and what am I prepared to do to be a success?

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From: Glen
Subject: Pitching

I agree with Geoff Harris and Robert Moss. Speaking as a writer who has worked as a script editor, a script reader and on collaborations with producers and directors, I have met many people with interesting pitches but no idea about structure or characterisation to follow it through to script.

The acid test for me is to ask them to explain to me the hero's arc. Either they frown and say they don't understand; repeat their pitch, only slower, as if I was a moron; tell me that there is no ark in their story, no mention of a boat at all; or they quote Sid Field...

It's taken me nine years of working on various projects for little, deferred or no money, to finally be able to say I am a "paid" writer. But for nine years, I have still been a writer, building up a respectable body of work and learning a lot in the process.

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From: Jon Green
Subject: Re: pitching

"A movie exec can stand to lose 10-20 mins of his day on a bad pitch - he can't afford three hours to read a bad script."

Whatever the popular conception, movie execs don't follow the text with their pudgy fingers whilst their lips silently and stutteringly recite it. It doesn't take three hours to read even a two-hour script; more like one hour or less.

In any case, you know as well as I do: (1) movie execs _very_ rarely read scripts straight out of the mail -- that's why they hire readers; (2) even readers generally only read the first ten or fifteen pages (and scan the rest quickly) unless it's looking like a "recommend".

However ...

" 1) don't pitch unless you have a script"

I'll go further than that. Don't pitch unless you've two or three at least, and a bunch more ideas, synopses and treatments in the bag. If they can't handle the material but like your style, they're going to ask to see other scripts you've written, and you'd better have an answer.

"if someone likes it and wants to read more then you look unprofessional and they 'might' decide they like your idea enough to write it themselves."

There's nothing to stop them doing that even if you've a fully written script. It's happened.

"2) the great thing about being pitched to is that it enables you to see if the writer really understands his story. As soon as you try and tell your story to someone, you see immediately where it works and doesn't work - too many pitches are under prepared."

Very true. "Dry pitching" is an immensely valuable exercise: pick a film-savvy friend, tell them to role-play a prodco exec and rip your material to pieces, then work up a sweat trying to pitch and defend it. (You allude to this later in your message.)

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From: Geoff Harris
Subject: Pitches..Back Tracking!

Interesting responses to the pitching debacle. In the light of which, I'm now back tracking a little!

What's generally understood by the term 'pitching' is that thing they do in the US of pitching an idea to raise the money to write a first draft. At least at the quoted 'Movie Exec' level. However if we're talking about pitching what is essentially the log line of a script you want to get read, then that is indeed the way things are done. Whether it be on this site, 'Scriptshop', any other website or indeed personally. How else could myself as a director, know if I was potentially interested in a project if I don't at least know the genre. Also I wouldn't want to waste a writer's time and money in sending me a script I was fundamentally uninterested in.

All those negative aspects of the process everyone has acknowledged, still do apply of course. A great idea doesn't always produce a great script, indeed that is sadly the case most of the time.

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From: Robert Moss
Subject: pitching

"As for the discussion on pitching, perhaps the US film industry does require this type of sales technique, but we don't all write for Hollywood or aspire to, do we?"

This is not a rant at you, but an explanation of why pitching is important - why it is the friend of every screenwriter.

The fact is the American way of pitching (say with a corkboard as described at www.wordplayer.com) is very very powerful. It works. Why would any writer not want to be able to learn and use those techniques?

If we're honest, it's because writers don't like doing it, they don't like rejection, they are scared of putting themselves out there. They'd much rather say "Please please read my script - it is full of subtle nuances and speckle ickle bits that make it really rather good", than expose themselves to the terror of standing up in front of a group of people and explaining what their story is about.

They'd rather face the anonymous rejection of a reader through the mail than the face to face rejection of an exec in an office.

People who don't like pitching generally don't like it because a) they are scared of it b) they don't understand it and c) they don't know how to go about it.

Rather than embrace the things we are scared of we pretend they don't exist - rather than master them we pretend our way is better, despite the evidence to the contrary.

Yes, you could go through your whole life not having to pitch but you'd be at a disadvantage. There are a whole load of mean eager hungry writers out there every bit as talented as you and many of them will be able to pitch. Why shorten your odds in an industry where you have a 1 in 1,000 chance of making a sale as it is?

What is wrong with being able to describe in detail what a script is about and, on the strength of that, convincing someone to read it - someone who would ordinarily not bother?

I've written so much about pitching recently and it's a shame that so few people actually seem to embrace what is a very important selling tool - it's one of the few things that a writer has control over. It can be a powerful tool in his/her armoury.

We should not be getting any more postings from people saying "why do we have to pitch?" To people that wonder that, go out and read any halfway decent screenwriting book and you will see why - you will then be spared the embarrassment of asking why pitching is important.

Stay behind class - you are all in detention.

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From: Andrew Senior
Subject: The Pitching Debate

Well it seems the debate will rage forever with those for and those against the pitching system. Now what about this idea for all those people who still insist on denying the pitch its due...

If you are going to write a story or a screen play you need an idea.. that idea is the story premise.. and the premise (which should be no more than three sentences long) is the pitch.. So, no matter how hard you try to deny it, if you are writing a script you have already written the pitch.

And the high concept premise does exist in all good scripts.. even in the most complicated, twisted movie the idea/premise/pitch can be summed up in no more than three sentences.. of course the rest of the script can then do whatever the writer likes but still, if the premise isn't good enough the script won't be worth writing.. no matter how pompously you write out a detailed synopsis..

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From: Alex Francis
Subject: Pitching ideas

Regarding the discussions about the best ways to pitch projects, I came across the following list of links to articles on loglines (effectively short pitches) which might be useful. Even if you never find yourself in that fabled position of standing beside Harvey Weinstein at a urinal in Cannes, it's very useful when writing to have a clear idea in your head of exactly what your story is about, and why you think it's interesting. Hope they help.

Anatomy of a logline http://www.screentalk.org/art026.htm

What's your logline article http://www.scriptsecrets.com/articles/logline.htm

How to write a good logline http://hollywoodnet.com/Moon/columns/col4.html

How to write a bad logline http://hollywoodnet.com/Moon/columns/col3.html

Loglines http://www.ctheshops.com/read/page3.html

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